Just maybe, you didn’t hear that we’re smack in the middle of University Press Week (November 12–18), a celebratory extravaganza for the 160 publishers that make up the Association of University Presses. This year’s #SpeakUP theme inspired different members of the Association to nominate more than 100 books, journals, and other publications to serve as a definitive reading list for social change—university press style. Foreword Reviews has always held the university press community in utmost esteem as evidenced by the thousands of university press titles reviewed over the magazine’s history. So, kudos to U, our UP friends. Have a wonderful week. See the complete list of 100+ titles here.

This week’s interview features the co-authors of How We Ended Racism, which earned a starred review from Kristine Morris in our November/December issue. Yes, that’s an eye-opening title but Justin Michael Williams and Shelly Tygielski are visionaries extraordinaire, as you’ll see in the interview with Kristine.

“Shifting to a perspective of possibility transforms everything,” you wrote, then worked backwards from an imagined future in which racism was no longer an issue to design a program that makes that future look like a real possibility.

In July of 2020, amidst a global pandemic and the outrage over the murder of George Floyd at the hands of the police, you came together knowing that something had to change—that racism had to end, not on some date far off in the future, but now. How did you first meet, and what did each of you see in the other that sparked such a brilliant collaboration?

Shelly: We met through a mutual friend. Justin was preparing for the launch of his first book, which included a book tour at high schools in marginalized communities across America. The friend suggested that, because of my trauma-informed work around mindfulness with communities affected by gun violence, I would be able to help connect Justin with the right people.

Months later, during a catch-up call when I was planning on leading a retreat in South Side Chicago for mothers affected by gun violence, I spontaneously invited Justin, who lives on the opposite coast, to join me and help lead the retreat. He agreed, and we finally met in person for the first time in December, 2019. It was one of those magical, pivotal moments where we both knew we would continue to work together in meaningful ways to create change, especially in communities that normally didn’t have access to the tools we were teaching.

One thing that’s unique about our different but complementary teaching styles is that, on paper and from the outside, we seem so different—Justin is a millennial, queer, Black man and I am a straight, Jewish, Gen X immigrant. We’ve learned a lot because of our different backgrounds and experiences, and others also benefit, because though we each bring a different perspective to the table, we are able to model how to have productive conversations that lead with love. This is the foundation of everything we have done or will ever do together.

Please share how racism affected you as you were growing up, and what motivated you to take up the challenge to find a way to end it.

Justin: Growing up as a queer Black man in a diverse family, racism cast a long shadow over my childhood and shaped my personal narrative in profound ways. When my white mother announced she was marrying my Black father, her family disowned her. This deep divide within my family was eventually mended by the courageous actions of my grandfather, who chose love and acceptance over prejudice, even if the journey would be fraught with challenges.

This personal history is the wellspring of my optimism and determination to eradicate racism. I’ve seen firsthand how love and understanding can bridge seemingly insurmountable divides. My family’s journey from division to unity taught me that ending racism is possible. And that it doesn’t have to be a fight, it can be a journey. And just as my family found a way to come together into one of the most beautiful, loving families I could ever imagine, I believe that we as a society can also find our way to a more equitable and harmonious future.

What inspired you to approach this complex, sensitive, and potentially dangerous issue the way you did—not looking backward in despair, but choosing to work from the perspective of possibility?

Shelly: Justin and I were both invited by the Garrison Institute to be a part of a two-year fellowship program. The program started right after the George Floyd murder in 2020. The premise of the fellowship was to have our cohort think about how we could answer big questions, questions that seem insurmountable and unsolvable. Also, around that time, companies were beginning to invest in DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) trainings for their employees, and there was a surge in the popularity of books about the history of racism, slavery, and anti-racism. Reading many of these books, leaning into the discussions and webinars, we realized that almost all of them—past or present—had one assumption in common: that racism cannot end. Or, at best, that it will be a “lifelong fight”; that, despite our work, every generation will struggle with it until the end of time.

So, while contemplating some really big questions, Justin, who was on a meditation retreat and had a moment of clarity, rang me up with the biggest question of all: Can we ever end racism? Tackling the question head-on, we quickly realized that we, ourselves, were skeptics who could come up with all the reasons why it can’t end, outlining every obstacle and roadblock in the way. We finally broke free from that when we came to understand the fundamental difference between attempting to solve a problem from the limitations of our past and present, and creating solutions from the possibilities of our future. We stood in the future and boldly asked ourselves: What conditions would need to arise in humanity today for racism to end? Who do we need to become individually to exist in such a world and be ready to receive it? The answers we uncovered during this deep dive is what led us down a path that eventually became this book.

You created, implemented in various places globally, and tested a program—a curriculum that gave surprisingly positive results. Please give an example or two of the successes you’ve seen.

Shelly: We started teaching our program, originally called “The Liberation Experience,” in the summer of 2020. It was that program, designed to connect the inner work to the outer world, that informed the content of our new book. In other words, we have people first do some deep inner work that requires a commitment to self-awareness, to acknowledging the shadow (or “hidden”) parts of ourselves, and to uncovering the subconscious biases that influence how we show up in the world. What we tested, and what has been proven time and again, is that if you skip over the inner work, the way you show up in the world is not as powerful or impactful.

That is because, even with the best of intentions, your unresolved traumas, your biases, your subconscious thoughts and feelings will eventually percolate up to the surface and weaken your actions. A practical example of this is the less-than-desired success of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI) programming in corporate America. After the George Floyd murder and the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement, many corporations immediately moved to bring in programming that sought to fix, improve, and/or educate employees. After spending millions of dollars, dozens of surveys and polls have come back with lackluster results in terms of the efficacy of these programs, and some measurements showed that organizations were worse off than before.

What we found confirmed our hunch that the reason these programs were ineffective was because most people were not primed to receive them—they had skipped over the inner work part and had immediately begun teaching people things they were not ready to receive. We were able to confirm that there needs to be a “prerequisite” to an anti-racism book, and that was a driving principle in how we crafted this book and our curriculum. We asked: What conditions need to arise within us to be ready to receive DEI training and have it shape the culture and create a true paradigm shift? The confirmation that this path “works” was delightfully surprising to us because it helped us—the biggest skeptics of all, at first—to believe that ending racism is in fact possible and within our reach.

What attitudes and/or conditions did participants in the program find the hardest to change, and what was easiest for them? Have the changes in individuals and/or communities been lasting?

Justin: In our programs, participants often found it most challenging to overcome their skepticism that ending racism is possible. Participants of all beliefs and backgrounds often arrived with a deeply ingrained belief that racism is an insurmountable issue, that it could never end. This skepticism is a reflection of the pervasive nature of racism and the toll it takes on individuals and communities alike. Racism often stems from years, if not generations, of lived experiences and societal conditioning that have painted it as an unavoidable aspect of human society. But science proves that this is not the case. Racism actually can end. We have all the tools we need, we just need to use them not only to “fight” racism, but to end it.

As participants delved into the program and began to unpack these deeply held beliefs, a transformation occurred. Once they embraced the teachings, participants reported feeling more open-minded, compassionate, and comfortable engaging in difficult conversations about race. They felt empowered to take action in their communities and foster a sense of hope and connectedness. The theoretical frameworks and practical tools we provided allowed them to see racism from a different perspective and recognize the role that individual and collective beliefs play in perpetuating it.

The changes we’ve seen in individuals and communities have been profound and lasting. Participants have taken the lessons learned in the program and applied them to their daily lives, creating a ripple effect that extends beyond the program itself. They have become advocates for change, challenging racism in their families, workplaces, and communities. This has resulted in improved relationships, personal growth, and a renewed sense of hope and possibility that we can create a more equitable and harmonious future for all.

What leads you to believe that it’s possible to end racism in just one generation, given that it’s systemic in the US?

Justin: One of the most significant parts of our experience writing this book was that after the first draft of the book was complete, we sent it to a liberal critical race theory researcher and to a writer for one of the world’s biggest conservative news outlets. Both of them responded that the book changed them, that it was something they agreed with and could stand by, and that it inspired them to dream bigger. When this happened, we knew we had done something special because these two people, who typically couldn’t even sit in a room together, could agree on a book about racism.

Furthermore, in reading their vulnerable comments and responses to the prompts in our book, we noticed that the two of them had so much more in common than they would’ve believed. Instead of finding that common ground and working from there, people get blinded into focusing only on their differences. Those differences are important, of course, but solutions come when we learn to connect inside of our differences.

Something being systemic doesn’t mean it can’t end. Every major problem in society that has ever changed has, at some point, been systemic. What we hope our book helps people do is stop fighting each other and being lost in the mirage of right and wrong, and start working together to change the systems that are problematic for so many of us.

Can racism be ended without first, or at least concurrently, addressing the inequities in society? What is your vision for this happening?

Shelly: Racism and societal inequities are interconnected and must be addressed concurrently for meaningful and lasting change to occur. That is because racism is deeply rooted in historical and systemic structures that perpetuate disparities in various aspects of life, including education, employment, housing, criminal justice, healthcare, and more. To envision a path toward ending racism and promoting equity, it’s essential to recognize the interdependence of these goals and adopt a holistic approach to elements like economic empowerment, legislative/policy reforms, and education reforms, to name a few.

However, there is one thing we are all missing, and it must be addressed before this question can really be answered: What inner work do we need to do on ourselves first? Historically, we skip over the inner work and immediately try to dismantle systems, or build new ones, engage in DEI trainings, and issue calls for the end of racism, but we have to understand that without a commitment to first healing ourselves and committing to self-awareness, we will not get over the finish line. The best version of the world starts with the best version of us. Ending racism has to start there, too. Most people are not ready to hear or acknowledge that, because it assigns them personal accountability for the current state of the world.

How has religion been complicit in the history of racism in the US? How has it worked to bring it to an end? How, and to what degree, is capitalism as practiced in the US linked to the continuation of racism?

Shelly: Religion’s role in the history of racism in the United States has been complex, encompassing both complicit and transformative aspects. Certain religious teachings were historically used to justify slavery, with some Christian denominations in the Southern US interpreting biblical passages to support the enslavement of Black people. During the era of segregation, some religious institutions enforced racial segregation in places of worship and in society at large. Moreover, white supremacist groups have employed religious rhetoric to promote racist ideologies.

However, religion has also played a crucial role in combating racism. Figures like the Baptist minister Martin Luther King Jr. and organizations like the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) mobilized faith-based communities in the Civil Rights Movement, leading to significant advancements in the fight against segregation and racial discrimination. Many religious communities and individuals remain actively engaged in advocating for racial justice and dismantling racist systems through social justice activism and interfaith dialogue.

Capitalism in the United States has also had a significant impact on the continuation of racism. Economic disparities along racial lines have been perpetuated within this system, with Black Americans and people of color historically facing barriers to economic opportunities, including employment discrimination and limited access to capital. Practices like redlining, which systematically denied loans and housing opportunities to Black communities, contributed to residential segregation and wealth disparities. Additionally, the exploitation of Black labor, from slavery to underpaid agricultural and industrial work, has been a historical feature of American capitalism. The for-profit prison industry is another example criticized for perpetuating racial disparities in incarceration rates. Moreover, capitalism has been used to perpetuate racial stereotypes and discriminatory practices in marketing and consumer culture. While capitalism itself is not inherently racist, addressing racism often requires advocating for economic reforms that address historical and ongoing racial inequalities within the system, alongside efforts in the realms of religion, social justice, and policy change.

It would seem that we would have ended racism long ago if no one was benefiting from it. Who are those that might be reaping benefits from racism and the suffering it causes?

Justin: It seems intuitive that we would have eradicated racism by now if it were not serving a purpose or benefiting certain individuals or groups. The concept of supremacy is intrinsically tied to racism, establishing hierarchies that designate some groups as superior and others as inferior. The beneficiaries of racism are those who find themselves at the top of these hierarchies, as they are afforded unearned privileges and advantages simply by virtue of their race or ethnicity.

In America, white supremacy is a prominent form of this hierarchy, placing white individuals at the top and subsequently benefiting them in various facets of life, from employment opportunities to social recognition. This is not to say that all white individuals consciously uphold or perpetuate racism, but they do inherently benefit from the system that racism has created.

However, it is important to note that supremacy is not limited to race and ethnicity. It can encompass various aspects of society, including religion, political affiliation, education, and wealth. In each instance, those who are part of the dominant group, or who are seen as adhering to the societal norms and standards set by the supremacy, are the ones who benefit.

To truly address and ultimately eradicate racism, we must challenge the very concept of supremacy and the hierarchies it creates. We all have something we consider supreme. This notion itself needs to be challenged, and we cover this at length in our book. By dismantling the structures that uphold supremacy, we can begin to undo the knot that racism has us tied in.

Along with your book, what good news can you share about the progress currently being made to end racism?

Shelly: We can share that one of the biggest messages of our book is really being taken to heart, and has created action based on the Buddhist proverb that we should all “tend to the area of the garden that you can reach.” Providing people with a sense of empowerment in a time that can feel deeply hopeless and as if the problems in the world are too daunting and big to do anything about is not just good news, it is the best news ever. We have motivated people to show up in ways that they initially considered “small,” but that have created ripples beyond anything they thought was possible. When people can contribute towards the end of racism in “their garden,” from book clubs in the deep South to hiking groups in Colorado that focus on marginalized youth, they are doing work that’s inspiring, impactful, and that builds momentum. This is where we need to start, each of us.

Please tell our readers what you each have planned for the future. Will you continue to collaborate?

Definitely! Justin and I are linked for life—we are committed to doing this work until we reach the finish line (or until our last breath). We plan on continuing to speak, teach, and who knows? Maybe we will even write another book together!

Kristine Morris
November 17, 2023

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